K5 - An Additional Puzzle?

In an interview with Sanborn, he alluded to more after K4 is solved.

KELLY: When and if it is finally cracked, what is the puzzle? What is the mystery that will be revealed?

SANBORN: It's a 97-character phrase. And that phrase is in itself a riddle. It's mysterious. It's going to lead to something else. It's not going to be finished when it's decoded.

Sanborn has also confirmed that K5 can't be solved until K4 is solved. More is revealed in this interview.

WN: Do the other pieces in the courtyard have clues for solving Kryptos?

Sanborn: I won't say.

WN: Do you have to be on the CIA grounds in order to solve Kryptos?

Sanborn: No.

WN: So just by reading the text taken from Kryptos and posted online, you can solve the puzzle?

Sanborn: Well, yeah. That doesn't mean that what I've said in the piece doesn't do something physically there at the agency. So the effect of the piece might affect something at the agency so that you'd have to see what I did at the agency.

WN: What do you mean?

Sanborn: In part of the code that's been deciphered, I refer to an act that took place when I was at the agency and a location that's on the grounds of the agency. So ... you have to decipher the piece and then go to the agency and find that place. There are, for example, longitude and latitude coordinates on the piece, which refer to locations of the agency.

WN: When you say act do you mean an act that you did or that happened while you were there?

Sanborn: An act that I could have carried out. I refer to something I'd done out there.

WN: Something that you did do?

Sanborn: I made reference in the encoded text to something I could have done there.

WN: How many (cryptographic) techniques did you use (in Kryptos)?

Sanborn: I would think five or six.

WN: Are the coded systems you used the same systems that (CIA cryptographer) Ed Scheidt gave you or have they been altered?

Sanborn: Mr. Scheidt basically gave me an outline of historic and contemporary ... encoding systems that have been formally used by the agency and were still used by the agency and other people (in 1990). He gave me a whole variety of possible systems to use and ways to modify all of those systems. But as a visual artist, I like to rely on systems that include visual (material) as well as digital material that can be deciphered by machines. It's also well-known that I did use some matrix codes Ed gave me, and I have also designed visual systems for encoding, which are much harder for cryptographers to crack because they're individualistic.

WN: *But it's still basically code systems that Scheidt gave you, right? I mean he could decipher *Kryptos if he wanted to, correct?

Sanborn: No, he doesn't know the solution. I made that very clear that I didn't want him to be able to decipher what's going on ... that I'd be modifying systems and developing my own, which would make it virtually impossible for him to decipher all of it. I intended the 80 percent (of the text) that's been deciphered to be deciphered and to be deciphered in stages and relatively quickly. The final part is obviously the, you know, the apex of the pyramid there.

It continues with ...

WN: Is there anything planted on the CIA property that you've buried?

Sanborn: Oh, I won't say.

WN: Well, you've mentioned before that each night after construction would finish for the day people from the CIA would come out to measure the materials.

Sanborn: Well the new (CIA) building was being built while I was there and at night there were teams that used, I believe, a neutron scan (on) everything that went into the agency so that they could find any bugs or anything that had been planted. (They) used ground-penetrating radar and various other means to see and find everything that was there. And I would suppose they did that with my piece as well, which makes it difficult to do whatever you'd like to do -- not in an espionage way, but whatever you want to do.

WN: What do you mean? Were there things that you wanted to do with the sculpture that you were unable to do?

Sanborn: I didn't say I was unable to do it, I just said it makes things difficult. When somebody comes in and X-rays everything you do every night, it makes it tough doesn't it? (Laughs)

WN: So you did something, but they knew about it?

Sanborn:: No, I didn't say that, either.

WN: There is someone who says he thinks he knows how the last section should be decrypted. John Wilson says that section three from Howard Carter's diary is giving instructions to the reader for what they should do with the text in the last section in order to decipher it. For example, when it describes Carter putting the candle through the hole, Wilson says it's an instruction for what to do with the text. So Wilson placed the word candle into the text. Is he on to something or off track?

Sanborn: I'm inclined to not comment. If a person deciphers and sends me the exact decipherment -- if it can be deciphered exactly, considering most of my things are rife with mistakes on purpose -- I'd probably let them know that they got it if they did. I will say that I have left instructions in the earlier text that refer to later text. (But) that's as far as I'll go.

WN: Do you want the puzzle of Kryptos to be solved?

Sanborn: Uhhh ... I certainly want it to be considered. I had figured that the parts that have been solved already would have been done a lot quicker than they were. But that might just have been a question of focus of the cryptography community.

WN: One decoded section refers to a "WW." It says specifically, "Who knows the exact location? Only WW." Who is WW?

Sanborn: (Former CIA Director) William Webster.

WN: The CIA required you to write down the solution to the sculpture and give it to Webster. Webster has said that he forgot the solution. Did he ever actually know the answer?

Sanborn: Well, you know, I wasn't completely truthful with the man. And I'm sure he realizes that. I mean that's part of tradecraft, isn't it? Deception is everywhere. I had to leave an envelope at the agency saying what was on the (sculpture). I gave it to William Webster at the dedication ceremony with a wax seal on it, but in fact I really didn't tell him the whole story. I definitely didn't give him the last section, which has never been deciphered.

WN: But he thinks you did give him the solution.

Sanborn: That's his problem! (laughs)

WN: Do you remember what the solution is?

Sanborn: No.

WN: You don't remember the solution to your own sculpture?

Sanborn: No. I've got it hidden someplace but I'm not going to read it. I have done everything I can to forget (it). Because I don't want to slip and give somebody information about it. I mean, you read the piece of paper, you burn it, and you forget it. That's the only way information is kept secret. (Otherwise) it's very difficult not to give clues. In the early days, anything I said was a clue. Now things are getting more and more refined the more people (are looking into) this. They are looking for shreds, tiny little slivers of information. So I have to be very careful not to go any further.

WN: So if you don't know the answer how will you know if anyone has solved it?

Sanborn: I have the solution hidden someplace. So if somebody cracks it I can cross-check it.

WN: What if something happens to you?

Sanborn: The secret will probably pass away.

WN: You haven't left it in your will?

Sanborn:: Well, actually I have. I think it's important that whoever says that they cracked it will in fact find out whether they actually did. So from that standpoint, there does have to be some sort of historic record of what it says.

Also, while talking at a dinner, additional information was discussed.

It was asked if K4 was a “one-off”. Some discussion ensued about the definition of “one-off”, but Ed looked to Jim and said “well Jim, how are we going to answer that one?”. To which Jim simply replied “we don’t answer it”.

Elonka jumped in to remind Ed that he once told her that Kryptos uses a system unknown to anyone on the planet. Ed stated he didn’t recall that conversation, and back-pedaled out of saying anything more.

Someone asked if anything was buried on the CIA grounds relating to Kryptos and Jim said YES and went on to explain how a USGS marker was buried somewhere but was removed later.

Klauss:Was something placed by Kryptos that we need access to to solve Kryptos? Jim: Yes, there is something buried adjacent to Kryptos. Jae and I went back to visit a couple of years ago, and they had removed it, but it is important. Donna: Well, since it is not there anymore, can you tell us what it was or do you want to wait for that?, Jim: The thing that was buried is a bronze USGS marker. It was half buried. It had little cross hairs on the top of it.

Jim went on to say that he still believes there’s something to be gained if we study his encryption charts that he released to the New York Times. He talked about how he released those in the context of we all wondered if the misspelled words were really mistakes, but he didn’t elaborate past that. JS was also involved in some smaller group discussions where individuals said he brought up his K1/K2 matrix and seemed mystified no one has gotten any thing more from it.

Unknown: can we solve K4 without solving K1-K3 first? Jim: Yes, but K5 cannot be solved without K4.

There is a discussion at the Geocaching forums about this benchmark, which is worth reading.

Finally, the encryption sheets that Sanborn released may provide key clues.